In this episode of Your Customer, Your Success, Gary sits down with Will Leach, founder of Mindstate Group, bestselling author of Marketing to Mindstates, and a behavioral designer who has shaped strategy for some of the most recognized brands in the country. Before founding Mindstate, Will led strategic insights at PepsiCo and spent nearly two decades inside behavioral research. He teaches behavioral design at SMU’s Cox School of Business and at the Texas A&M Human Behavior Lab.
This conversation explores a reality most leaders underestimate:
Customers do not decide the way they say they decide.
Will explains why all behavior is emotionally based, why the most common decision a customer makes is to not decide at all, and how leaders can build real psychological empathy with the people they serve.
He walks through the four factors behind every customer decision: goals, motivations, regulatory approach, and bias triggers. He shows how the same product can be positioned differently for an optimistic buyer than for a cautious one, why consistency builds the habits that protect a brand, and how aspirational goals quietly shape choices a customer would never explain on a survey.
Gary and Will then turn the lens on customer experience and data. They examine the limits of NPS, satisfaction scores, and health metrics, and why the gap between what customers say and what they do undermines decisions built on numbers alone. Will closes with how his team applies this thinking through behavioral research and an AI platform built to represent the customer’s subconscious.
This episode reinforces a core principle of the show:
Client focus is a growth strategy.
Leadership behavior drives revenue.
The why behind a decision matters more than the metric that measures it.
If you are a founder, operator, or customer-focused leader trying to understand why your data keeps misleading you, this conversation will sharpen how you think about customer decisions, motivation, and behavioral design.
What You’ll Learn
- Why all behavior is emotionally based, and what that means for marketing and sales
- The four factors behind every customer decision: goals, motivations, regulatory approach, and triggers
- Why aspirational goals influence choices customers cannot articulate
- How the same product can be positioned for an optimistic buyer or a cautious one
- Why consistency builds the habits that protect a brand
- The limits of NPS and satisfaction data, and the say-do gap
- How to ask the customer questions that move from what they want to why they want it
- How behavioral science applies in a smaller business without a Fortune 100 budget
Chapters (provisional, pending final edit anchor)
00:00 Cold open
01:02 Introduction
03:04 Building psychological empathy with customers
04:36 The four factors behind every customer decision
09:55 How a brand like PepsiCo applies behavioral thinking
13:57 Why consistency builds brand habits
16:35 Why two identical customers respond differently
22:37 What changes when a brand sees its customer this way
29:37 The limits of NPS and customer metrics
32:50 A simple first move for a smaller business
35:57 How Mindstate applies behavioral AI
39:31 Does It Hold Water?
42:10 Chip Shots
Book Recommendation
Predictably Irrational by Dan Ariely
Connect with Will
Website: https://mindstategroup.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/will-leach/
🔗 Connect with Gary Marra
· LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gary-marra/
· Marra CX Hub: https://marracxhub.com/
· YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@yourcustomeryoursuccesspodcast
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ABOUT YOUR CUSTOMER, YOUR SUCCESS
Your Customer, Your Success is a leadership and business growth podcast focused on the idea that client focus is not just a service philosophy, it is a growth strategy. Hosted by Gary Marra, the show sits at the intersection of customer experience, employee experience, leadership, and operational discipline. Each episode features practical conversations with executives, advisors, and business leaders on how better experiences drive loyalty, trust, retention, and sustainable business growth.
ABOUT GARY MARRA
Gary Marra is a business advisor, customer experience leader, and host of Your Customer, Your Success. Drawing on deep experience in financial services, client management, operations, and cross-functional leadership, Gary helps organizations think more clearly about how service, trust, and execution shape growth. His perspective combines customer-centric strategy with practical business discipline, making the show especially relevant for founders, operators, and leaders responsible for long-term client relationships.
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